Ask HN: 3.5 inch diskette read errors, would a period correct drive do better? | Hacker NewsHacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitloginAsk HN: 3.5 inch diskette read errors, would a period correct drive do better?7 points by rietta 1 hour ago | hide | past | favorite | 5 commentsMy first attempt at restoring 1991 Learning Company Spellbound for DOS for my children is dubious. Despite being stored nowhere near magnetic sources, there are read errors on the 3.5 inch floppies and Linux could not mount them. ddrescue extracted data but I have not confirmed it works. The box also have 5.25 inch disks but I do not have a reader online at the moment, that is its own project.My technical question is this, the USB 3.5 inch drive I have is a "USB Portable Diskette Drive" that was Made in China but has no obvious sponsoring branding. If I take the time to bring back to life a more period correct system with an actual IDE floppy drive would it read the disks more accurately?My goal is to get more of this good DOS and early Windows educational software working for my children. This particular title is meaningful because I have the actual boxes and learned on it myself all those years ago.One option for hardware is my parent's Leading Edge WinPro 486. The case looks to be in good shape but I have not opened the case to see the condition of the capacitors yet. It has a natively mounted 3.5 and 5.25 inch drive. help

vunderba 13 minutes ago | prev | next [–]
Learning Company software has been pretty well archived at this point. To me, the easiest approach would be to hold onto the original box/packaging for sentimental purposes, and just find a copy of it on a site like the Internet Archive.If your goal is to use it on a period-correct system, I’d go with 34/40pin adapters that lets you read flash cards, USB, etc.A lot of my friends have kept their old 486 computers, and everything is period-correct except for the hard drive and floppy drive which have been replaced with a CF-to-IDE for the HDD and Gotek running FlashFloppy firmware for the 3.5".replyPaulHoule 1 hour ago | prev | next [–]
10 years ago I heard “you’d better read all the floppy disks you’ve got now because you won’t be able to do it later.” You might do better with better hardware, you might not. This thing can get at the raw datahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KryoFluxwhich might let you get most of the bits from a bad block. Seehttps://goughlui.com/2013/04/21/project-kryoflux-part-1-the-...replyrietta 1 hour ago | parent | next [–]
Neat! Thank you for the info on that one. Bookmarked!Before I spend well over $100 importing that device, I previously was thinking of brining up a 2001 era motherboard with a USB stack and can natively host the drives, but the 486 that has sat unused may be a solid option. I presumably can find a way to transfer data to a modern system over serial cable or something.replyVogonPoetry 12 minutes ago | prev | next [–]
Another comment mentions a KryoFlux. A cheaper alternative is a GreaseWeasel (£30, $30). The 4.1 version even has USB-C as a connector. You will need an external power brick with a 4pin Molex connector for 5.25 drives. You can buy these standalone or they might come with a SATA/PATA/IDE Hard Drive to USB converter. Can also use an old PC power supply if you fake the power on signal.I've had quite a lot of success, almost 100%, over quite a long time - both 5.25 and 3.5. I did use older drives intended for "desktop" machines. The drives from Japanese companies seem to be the most reliable; NEC, TEAC. The 3.5 USB Portable diskette drives are based around laptop floppy designs. You won't be able to find a direct 5.25 to USB adapter (or modify one to work) as the speeds / data rates are all wrong, so you will need something like a GreaseWeasel or old PC for those.I've used different reading mechanisms over the years; an old PC running Linux with a real floppy chipset + custom raw reading code, custom hardware with an F82077 + Atmel + SDCard, and most recently a GreaseWeasel.The floppies I've recovered were stored relatively well, but were mostly my and family members data - not commercial floppies. If there is any copy protection on the floppies you are trying to read you may need to capture the flux transitions. For these, I'd check archive.org to see if someone has already generated a copy.For 5.25 floppies fingerprints and surface blemishes can be softened / removed with ISO Propyl and a Q-tip. Floppies designed for cleaning the heads of drives seem to now be very expensive / non-existent. Manually cleaning the heads of a 3.5 drive is way more difficult. I've got ideas about using Face mask / filter material to create a cleaning tool, but it is on the experiments to try list.Even back when floppies were a thing, I found that 3.5 drives were more un-reliable between machines than 5.25 drives. I think there was more variation in head alignment and track positioning. When I've had issues, I've always been lucky in that switching the drive vendor / model made reading the floppy possible even if it took multiple attempts or was very slow.Good luck.replyanenefan 25 minutes ago | prev | next [–]
Old diskettes can be a problem especially storage that suits the white menace bacterial / fungus that can grow on the surface and cleaning can sometimes remedy but unless it's spots that can be got though the window with an ear bud, disassembly is required.The thing I'd recommend is search of an image of the disks if they exist. Next best is an emulation eg [1] [2] which I found by way of google and yandex[1] https://www.abandonwaredos.com/abandonware-game.php?abandonw...
[2] https://archive.org/details/super-solvers-spellbound-dos-en-...reply

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The discussion revolves around the difficulty of reading data from 3.5 inch floppy disks, exemplified by challenges faced when attempting to restore vintage software like Learning Company Spellbound for DOS. The central technical query concerns whether utilizing a period-correct system with an actual IDE floppy drive would yield more accurate disk reads compared to using modern equipment, such as a USB Portable Diskette Drive.

One suggested approach is to prioritize archival methods; participants recommend retaining original packaging or seeking copies through sources like the Internet Archive before engaging in difficult recovery efforts. For users aiming to run older software on modern systems, adapters, such as 34/40pin adapters, are recommended for interfacing with various media like flash cards and USB drives. Some experienced users have leveraged hardware modifications, employing components such as a KryoFlux mechanism to potentially extract raw data from damaged blocks.

Further technical advice focuses on the reliability of disk reading mechanisms. It is suggested that drives manufactured by Japanese companies, specifically NEC or TEAC, are often more reliable than those based around laptop floppy designs, like the 3.5 inch USB portable drive. The discussion touched upon differences in reliability between 3.5 and 5.25 inch drives, noting that 3.5 drives may exhibit greater variation in head alignment and track positioning across different machines.

Regarding physical disk condition, advice was given on surface remediation; fingerprints and blemishes on 5.25 inch floppies can sometimes be softened or removed using methods involving materials like ISO Propyl. The difficulty of manually cleaning the heads of 3.5 drives is highlighted as significantly greater than for 5.25 drives, suggesting that disassembly might be required if deep cleaning is necessary, although experimental methods using filter material are also being explored.

Alternative solutions and hardware considerations were proposed for achieving reliable data access. One recommendation involves utilizing specialized tools such as a GreaseWeasel, which offers alternatives to more expensive reading mechanisms. Users have reported success with various setups, including older PCs running Linux with real floppy chipsets and custom raw reading code. The experience suggests that switching drive vendors or models can sometimes be successful in enabling data reading, even if it requires multiple attempts or results in slow access.

Ultimately, the discussion emphasizes that while hardware improvements are tempting, the reliability of data recovery often depends on sophisticated techniques involving flux transition capture or emulation, especially when dealing with potential copy protection on older media. The consensus leans toward investigating advanced methods for data extraction alongside hardware considerations to resolve issues related to physical degradation and read errors on older floppy formats.